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 Future Energy Choices

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Aletrius
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:38 pm

LichenDragon wrote:
England lost pretty much all of its French territories.

England had already lost most of them before the Hundred Years' War.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:53 pm

Did it? I am humbled then.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:54 pm

Gandhi was cool. He made India a country. Then was killed by some Hindu extremist.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:04 pm

So was Alexander the Great. He created the great Hellenistic civilizations of the near East and was killed by some extremist Malaria.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:59 pm

Stupid extremists ruin everything.
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LichenDragon
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:42 pm

By the way, I wonder what diseases there are for the Xen'Vi...
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:41 pm

You can make a topic for that, if you want.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:58 am

Xeno wrote:
Gandhi was cool. He made India a country. Then was killed by some Hindu extremist.

Ghandhi is far more complicated than simply campaigning for Indian Independence. In fact, it was only towards the very end did he actually want Indian Indepedence. Before that, he simply wanted India to become an autonomous Dominion. To quote him upon hearing of the outbreak of the First World War:

"We are, above all, British citizens of the Great British Empire. Fighting as British are at present in a righteous cause for the good and glory of human dignity and civilisation...our duty is clear: to do our best to support the British, to fight with our life and property."

Most Indians shared Ghandhi's sentiments; the 2 million Indians who served in the First World War were all volunteers, as were the 3.5 million or so who served in the Second World War.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:28 am

:O
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:11 am

I see... Pondering
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Aletrius
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:25 am

History is rarely as simple as it seems.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:04 am

But he also made India a country.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:20 am

Xeno wrote:
But he also made India a country.

Another misconception. By the end, Ghandhi was actually sidelined in the final years and held no posts whatsoever. The Indian Congress tookover and violence became the main form of opposition - the complete opposite to Ghandhi's methods which were soon ignored as the violence flared. India gained its independence not how Ghandhi wanted it - the complete opposite, in fact.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:11 pm

But... but... He tried to make it a country. And in the end it worked. So I'm going to give him credit. Because he helped.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:30 pm

Xeno wrote:
But... but... He tried to make it a country. And in the end it worked. So I'm going to give him credit. Because he helped.

So you're making a judgement based on only the most minimal reasons?

Not the best way to analyse history. Neutral

I would say that while Ghandhi played a part, there was far more to him than Indian Independence and his methods ultimately failed. As such, I would not give him credit for making India. I would rather say that even Clement Attlee overall did more to precipitate independence.

History taught it in schools is not to be believed. One should do their own research on matters and not base any of their views of school history, which is vitually always simplified and, to be honest, biased.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:00 pm

I don't like you.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:18 pm

I lean towards Aletrius.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:22 pm

:O

I think I'm the stupidest person here...
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:44 pm

Naw. I'm pretty useless with things that I can't reason out.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:48 pm

At least your know stuff about Spain.

Still, I think Gandhi was a good person. And he had good ideas. And he did a lot of stuff for his people.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:26 pm

Xeno wrote:
At least your know stuff about Spain.

Still, I think Gandhi was a good person. And he had good ideas. And he did a lot of stuff for his people.

I ever said he wasn't. All I'm saying is that there is far more to it and that Ghandhi is by no means deserving of the majority of the credit, regardless of what school history teaches.

The reality is that the portrayal of Indian Independence as largely a result of Ghandhi is naive and misguided. Indian Independence is in itself a highly complicated issue with many figures having more important parts than Ghandhi, such as Nehru.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:08 pm

Okay then. Tell me about India gaining independence then. I'm interested.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:55 pm

The history teacher across the hall from mine is very opinionated about such things. He will rant for entire class periods about people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:19 pm

MY class just sits there and listens to the history of Virginia and the US for the 8th year in a row. Except for that time we spent a week learning that Mali was in Africa, Greece was full of Greeks with marble and Rome was just Greeks in Italy.

Thankfully we at least have civics in 8th grade.
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PostSubject: Re: Future Energy Choices   Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:50 am

Xeno wrote:
Okay then. Tell me about India gaining independence then. I'm interested.

The idea for Indian Independence intially goes back to the 1850s. By this point, the East India Company either directly rules much of India or has effectively made the Princes of the numerous states and principalities entirely dependent on the Company. However, dissent is brewing over the treatment of the Indian soldiers that it commands by the East India Company, as well as their poor economic management of the territory which they rule, resulting in numerous famines which kill millions. It all boils to a head in 1857 when the sepoys (native Indian troops) were given pig fat to grease their bullets with - going against the Hindu and Islamic religions which the majority of the soldiers followed. This resulted in a mutiny; the so-called Indian Mutiny. The sepoys rose up against the Company and captured numerous cities, resulting in many atrocities such as the Black Hole of Calcutta. It is important to note that at this point Britain itself did not rule India; rather, the East India Company did, and the British Parliament was able to exert little influence. However, at this point, it was clear that the Company could not cope with the rebellion, and thousands of British troops were sent by the Parliament to put down the Muntiny. Once the highly trained troops of Britain arrived, the rebellion was brutally put down in just a matter of months, with hundreds of sepoys hanged for treason and other crimes. At the point, the British Parliament dissolved the East India Company and declared India a Crown Colony, now under direct British rule. This culminated in the declaration of Queen Victoria as Empress of India in 1876. However, the vestiges of an ideal remained - Indian Independence had been put down, but began to take a different form. Meanwhile, the colonial administration brought in a state education system, gave Indians citizenship and rights largely equal to those of Britons, and created the Indian Civil Service, which only Indians could serve in and served to administrate the massive country. Massive public works projects of roads, plumbing and telegraph cabling were also began, as was the great building of railway lines and hospitals, bringing India into the modern world.

The first organized militant movements were in Bengal, the first part of India to come under the rule of the East India Company over a century before, but it later took political stage in the form of a mainstream movement in the then newly formed Indian National Congress (INC) in 1885 with prominent moderate leaders seeking to have more rights. The beginning of the early 1900s saw a more radical approach towards political independence proposed by leaders such as the Lal Bal Pal (violent striking and boycotts) and Sri Aurobindo. Militant Nationalism also emerged in the first decades, culminating in the failed Indo-German Pact and Ghadar Conspiracy during the First World War. The stages of the freedom struggle of the 1920s saw the Congress adopt the policies of nonviolence led by Gandhi; and several campaigns of civil resistance ensued, such as the Salt March of early 1930. Throughout the 1930s, some personalities, such as Netaji Bosel, came to adopt a military approach to the movement, using violence and armed attacks on British troops, officials and 'collaborators'. The Second World War period saw the peak of the violent movements like the Indian National Army (INA) movement led by Netaji Bose. Inter-ethnic violence between Hindus and Muslims also began to emerge in the 1930s, and violence quickly spread and grew more extreme.

During the Second World War, Bose formed alliances with Japan and tried to aid them in de-stabilising India. He sided with Japan and aided them in their invasion of Burma, fighting against the British Indian Army, consisting of his own people. He triggered mutinies among Indian soldiers and in the Royal Indian Navy, causing more violence across India. Many historians have argued that the INA, and the mutinies it inspired, were strong driving forces behind the transfer of power in 1947. The INA also triggered the Christmas Island mutiny; after two Japanese attacks on Christmas Island in late February and early March 1942 relations between the British officers and their Indian troops broke down. On the night of 10 March the Indian troops led by a Sikh policemen mutinied murdering the five British soldiers and the imprisoning of the remaining 21 Europeans on the island. Later on 31 March, a Japanese fleet arrived at the Island and the Indians surrendered. They also inspired the Royal Indian Navy Mutiny (the RIN Mutiny or the Bombay Mutiny) encompasses a total strike and subsequent mutiny by the Indian sailors of the Royal Indian Navy on board ship and shore establishments at Bombay harbour on 18 February 1946. From the initial flashpoint in Bombay, the mutiny spread and found support through India, from Karachi to Calcutta and ultimately came to involve 78 ships, 20 shore establishments and 20,000 sailors, with violence breaking out between ships and sailors loyal to the Raj and the British officers who commanded the ships. Acts of retribution were carried out upon anyone who used disciplinary measures against sailors who sympathised with the independence movements. This is considered to have been one of the deciding movements in showing how British rule in India was becoming untenable.

The true judgment of contributions of each of these individual events and revolts to India’s eventual independence, and the relative success or failure of each, remains open to historians. Most historians claim that the Quit India Movement was ultimately a failure and certainly the British Prime Minister and the Viceroy at the time of Independence, Clement Attlee and Louis Mountbatten repsectively, deemed the contribution of Gandhi's Quit India movement as minimal, instead ascribing importance to the nationalist revolts and violence and growing dissatisfication among the Royal Indian Army and Navy as the crucial reasons behind the Indepencence Act of 1947, and the subsequent partition that resulted. However, it is important to note that the non-violence movements perhaps initially inspired people, but the violence and militancy were ultimately what made progress towards independence.

I think that is what you asked for, Xeno.
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